[shadow=maroon,up,300]GRAMMAR SECTION[/shadow]
DrekHi all! ^^ I came to this forum and was intrigued by the prospect of helping to create a language. It's actually a sort of hobby of mine...
Since I noticed the grammar section is sort of lacking (...there's nothing here. ) I decided to try to make a sort of set of grammar rules based on Narayani vocabulary we already know.
From this we see that Narayani sentence structure is
Subject-Verb-Object, same as English. Look:
"I drank water."
I: Subject
Drank: Verb
Water: Object
Get it?
Naray alani translates to
Narayan, my home. Obviously, this isn't a direct translation, seeing as how the two sentences have a different number of words.
"Alani" might be connection of a prefix + a root word, like "a" + "lani" or "al" +"ani." The prefix would denote possession.
This could also work the other way: a suffix rather than a prefix. "Ala" +"ni" for example.
Naray latiste t'dee translates to
Narayan, whose lattice tree is life[/i]. Following the Subject-Verb-Object order, this translation is relatively straightforward. The
t' could be the verb
be. This translates it literally as "Narayan lattice tree is life." Where's the "whose?" Some languages (Japanese, for example) do not use possessive adjectives like "whose." Instead, they leave it up to a wonderful thing called
context. Context is rather difficult to define; basically, if a word seems to be missing, use the words that are present to give you clues about the absent word. "Narayan lattice tree is life" could be interpreted this way as intended. (It could also be interpreted as "Narayan,
your lattice tree is life," which means basically the same thing.)
Nosis amani azhwa na translates to
I think of you with joy. This one is a bit difficult. It all depends on where you can place the prepositional phrase
with joy. It could literally be anywhere in the sentence: "
With joy I think of you." "I,
with joy, think of you." "I think,
with joy, of you." "I think of you
with joy." (Ok, almost anywhere in the sentence.) Until we can clear that up, I'll leave that to speculation.
I hope I haven't made that many errors. And if this has already been discussed, please tell me. ^^ I don't want to make a fool of myself on my first day.
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DrekOkee dokee, there are quite a lot of grammar speculations in the Vocabulary section. For ease, I'll copy them into this topic; with appropriate credit given, of course.
From BladeLakem Both
Naray and
Narayan seem to translate to "Narayan." "Naray" could be a vocative case of the word "Narayan," or "Narayan" is the accusative form of "Naray."
"Malisa" seems to translate as the future tense of the verb "to avenge." It also somehow inflects the 1st-person case, though no pronouns or other indicators are present in the sentence.
There seems to be two possessive pronouns: "ami" and "ma."
From Mystress The suffix "-ani" may exist; it appears in several words such as "alani" and "Narayani."
The suffix "-a" may indicate 1st-person possession.
"Ma" seems stronger than "ami" in terms of possession.
Dropping the final syllable of a word seems to indicate familiarity.
From Mystie "Ami" may refer to people, whearas "ma" may refer to things.
From Laroon There are three ways to denote 1st-person possession: "ami," "ma," and the "-ani" suffix.
The "-ani" suffix denotes 1st-person possession of the
subject of a sentence.
"Ami" and "ma" seem to be different somehow; again, "ma" seems stronger.
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*exhales* Whew! Did I miss any? Feel free to point out if I did. Hope this helps!
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GorobayHello! I've read this forum for a while but never had anything to say until now. Here is my take on Narani grammar:
"Nosis amani azhwa na" We know that Narani is based on English, Latin, Hebrew, and Romance languages, so it is likely that "azhwa" means "joy". That would make "na" probably mean "with". "Nosis" sounds like "gnosis" ("knowledge"), so it probably means "I think". That leaves "amani" to mean "of you".
Pluralization We have the plural words "devota" ("the ones I love"), "yamani" ("my ages"), and "soule" ("souls"). It seems like there might not be a plural form for words and they might have to be figured out by context. "Devota" might not even be plural; it could mean "the group of people I love" (which is singular), just as "family" means "the group of people I am related to".
"Ami", "ma", and "-ani" "Ami" is used only in "Ami malisa pariel; / Memondama ami soule!" (right?). The first one does not make sense to mean "my". "Ma" is only used in "Malisa ma Narayan!" "-ani" is used in "yamani", "alani", and "famani". I don't see any pattern there.
If it were not for the translation, I would say that "ami" meant "your", which makes more sense in the context and would make things a lot easier to understand.
Imperativesa: keep safe
havana: shelter
apic: use (?)
memondama: remember
All but "apic" end in "-a", and since it is in "apic'nanin", it could be short for "apica nanin". Then again, a lot of words end in "-a", so it could be coincidence.
"Yamani" What does this mean? Is it "my ages" or "breeding"? Or is it a homophone?
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MystressGorobay, I agree with you on the first point - I also think that 'azhwa' translates as 'joy'. So, without any grammatical cleanup, the phrase "Nosis amani azhwa na" reads "Think of you joy with". XD Of course, "I think of you with joy" makes a lot more sense...
It's possible that the a- in front of 'amani' is a suffix meaning 'of', like Spanish has 'a', meaning 'of' or 'with'.
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Gorobay[/b]
Verbs We don't have that many verbs to work with; these are my guesses at which word means what:
comensanin = it begins
revilani = to learn; to unlock
t' = to be
nosis = I think
sa = keep safe!
havana = shelter!
apic' = apply!
yan = to offer
malisa = I will avenge
memondama = remember!
There are three indicative verbs there (indicative is the kind of verb that states a fact): "comensanin", "nosis", and "malisa". I think it is likely that "comensanin expidan revilani erte" actually means "beginning of the journey to reveal the art", so "comensanin" might not be a verb. The other two imply that Narani does not use subject pronouns.
There are two or three infinitives there (depending on what "yan" means; I can't figure it out). There does not seem to be a pattern.
There are four imperatives. Three end in "-a" and "apic'-" could be short for "apica". As I said before though that could be a coincidence.
There do not seem to be any patterns in verbs at all; not in their endings, their position in the sentence, or their use of pronouns. If Narani is ever developed further, and if Jack Wall does not respond, we will have to invent most of the grammar. But that's fun, so that's okay!
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Gorobay[/u]
You amani = of you
nanin = what you have seen
ami = your (?)
Those are the only instances of "you"-related words I could find. "Ami" could mean "your" if "memondama ami soule" meant "I remember your heart"; if that were the case, "ami malisa pariel" would make more sense. In that case, it would imply that "-ani" is an adjective suffix: "ami" + "-ani" = "amani". I don't think "nanin" is related to it.
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Gorobay-ani revilani = to learn; to unlock
amani = of you
alani = my home
famani = my family
yamani = my ages
locusani = location
Narayani = Narayani (adj. and noun)
Narani = Narani (noun)
The most obvious pattern is "-ani" = "my", but what about all the other words? Another possibility is that all of the "my"s are implied, so "alani" actually just means "home". Try the song without the "my"s; it still makes sense in English. That would mean that "-ani" is just a common ending for words, which would not be surprising.
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Gorobay[/u]
Grammar This is a proposal of grammar, and it uses a lot of assumptions which I state as facts. I did not change any words from the ones we know; I just made up more words based on perceived patterns. It will probably be confusing, since I am making it up as I go along. Please ask questions; they help me too. Okay then. You have been warned.
Here are some verbs;
-i is an infinitive marker (usually). For verbs that end in non-"i" vowels, treat them as if they had "-n" on the end of the root (so pretend
ta is
tan while adding suffixes):
comensani = to begin
expidi = to journey
devoti = to love
nan = to see
nilati = to annihilate
memondi = to remember
ta = to be (I assume that it is only
t' in the song because of the syllable count)
To make the gerund form, add
-in if the root ends with
-n; add -an otherwise.
-t- at the end of a root becomes
-sh-:
comensanin = beginning
expidan = journey
devoshan = love
nanin = sight
nilashan = annihilation
memondan = memory (in general)
tanin = being (in general)
To make the word for "person or thing
verbed", add
-in if the root ends with
-n; add
-a otherwise:
devota = loved one
nanin = what is seen
memonda = memory (a particular one)
tanin = being (a particular one)
To make the word for "person or thing who
verbs", add
-ya if the root ends with
-n; add
-aya otherwise:
comensanya = beginner
expidaya = journeyer
devotaya = lover (in the familial sense of "one who loves")
nanya = seer
nilataya = annihilator
memondaya = rememberer
tanya = one who is
How does that sound? This is grammar I invented without attestation but it sounds Narani to me.
More grammar Here is some more grammar I made up, based on what we know.
Person and number are shown by a suffix. Get rid of the
-an at the end of verbs like comensani. There are probably irregular verbs and maybe different verb families, but for now, this is what I made:
I = -is
you (sing.) = -am
he/she/it = same as infinitive
we = -al
you (pl.) = -ast
they = -(e)n
nosis = I think
memondam = you remember
expidan comensani = journey begins
To make the future, add
-a;
-ya for he/she/it. The imperative is the same form:
memondama = you will remember
apicama = you will use
apic' = short from of you will use used in the song
malisa = I will avenge
(the infinitive is mali
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Mystress[/u]
I think that if we figure out how the words are 'morphed' into Narani from our languages, we can therefore create words and effectively rebuild the language.
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GorobayThat's true. We should each write something Narani-sounding. That way we will know how Narani should sound, so we make something that sounds right. Here is mine:
Bara ero homani libra ma ecal dinitani i ma ritani i. Dotara risoni ma consha ma zhwa frasola ti.
(All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.)
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Mystress[/u]
It would seem that the endings are like Spanish. Also, with "soule", it would seem that the form of 'my' indicates whether the word means 'soul' or 'heart/love'. 'ami' seems to indicate 'heart/love', and 'ma' seems to indicate soul.
Na expidan de ma soule comensani, ya azhwis.
(The journey of my soul begins, and I rejoice.)
Na - the, based loosely on Spanish 'La'.
De - of, based upon Spanish 'De'.
Ya - and, based very loosely upon Spanish 'Y'.
azhwis - 'azhwa', meaning 'happiness/joy', becomes 'rejoice' or 'celebrate' when conjugated like a verb.
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Gorobay[/u]
Does Narani have a word for "the"? "The journey to learn the Art" is translated from "expidan revilani erte": no "the". I like the idea of nouns, like "azhwa", working as verbs; "havana" does it too.
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Mystie[/u]
Maybe there is a "the" word that is only used
sometimes, when needed to emphasize anything?
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GorobayOkay, I made some changes to my proposition. Here it is:
Notes:
1 Disyllabic verbs only (yani, teni, etc.). For -eni, replace "-a-" with "-e-".
2 The "-mt" is pronounced "-pt".
3 "å" is the "a" in "yan" (like in "yawn").
4 "à" is the one-character "ya".
5 "-t-" before the verb ending becomes "-?-"; e.g. devoti -> devo?an.
6 "-d-" before the verb ending becomes "-s-"; e.g. degradi -> degrasa.
A verb from each of the verb families is comensani, expidi, azhwa, and yani (to offer).
This would make Mystress's quote be "Expidan de ma soule comensi, ya azhwis."
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Mystress... why 'thou'? I thought it was 'you'?
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Gorobay[/u]
Because it's easier than saying "singular 'you'" and "plural 'you'" all the time.
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Gorobay[/u]
Genitive case and "of" We don't have much for this:
comensanin expidan = the beginning of the journey
amani = of you
ami ... pariel = your peril
ami soule = my heart
ma Narayan = my Narayan
de = for
Here is my idea:
1: Putting two nouns one after the other implies "of" between them. So "my end of the bargain" would be "mi endani barganin" (or whatever the words are).
2:
Ami means "your", always.
3: "Memondama ami soule" is pronounced "memondam' ami soule" in the song. But it could also be "memondama mi soule", where
mi means "my".
4:
Ma also means "my".
Mi is used when the speaker owns the thing ("my heart", "my spirit mask", "my book"); ma when he doesn't ("my Narayan", "my wife", "my two baby girls"). Other pronouns have two ownership levels too.
5:
Amani means "of you". Other pronouns have genitive forms too.
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MystressOkay, so if de = for, then what are the rest? Establishing pronouns might help...
And what of word order? Is it adjective-noun (green book) or noun-adjective (book green)?
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GorobayIs my idea of saying that the lyrics are slightly wrong okay with everyone? If not we can change the grammar proposition.
Adjectives The only definite adjective we have is before the noun: "degrasa soule". People have had the idea (which I agree with) that "Naray alani" means "Narayani home", which supports the adjective-before-noun idea.
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MystressThat is fine with me. And if we want to put it in 'canon', we can say that Jack Wall *slightly* mistranslated the words.
About the line "J'nanin, locusani degraca-sul (or degraca soule) de yamani": It would appear that 'degraca-sul' translates as something like 'disgraced soul' (lost soul), but I was always told that 'locusani' meant 'lost souls'. I'm of the opinion that the line roughly reads something like:
J'nanin, the creating place of the Lost One's disgraced soul.
Where:
locusani = Lost One (formal, obviously referring to Saavedro)
degraca-sul = disgraced soul
de = of/for
yamani = creating place (or breeding ground)
So in this case, de could mean either of or for. Both ways work.
On the difference between 'soule' and 'sul': In the above line, some people write 'degraca-sul' as 'degraca soule'. I'm of the opinion that this is not quite right, but feel free to disagree. We've already established that 'soule' means 'heart/soul', but then what does 'sul' mean? In the lyrics, 'memondama ami soule' is translated as 'remember my heart', whereas 'degraca-sul' is translated as 'disgraced soul'.
It would seem that 'soule' means 'heart' and 'sul' means 'soul', which makes sense. So saying 'degraca soule' is like saying 'disgraced heart', which, while poetic, isn't exactly right. Therefore, 'degraca-sul' is correct.
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GorobaySoule vs. sul Both of them sound like "sol" to me. "Degraca" is actually pronounced "degrasa", by the way (not that that changes anything).
Locusani degrasa sol de yamani That would literally be, if your translations are right, "the Lost One's disgraced soul of/for the breeding ground", which is close enough to the *slightly mistranslated* lyrics.
If "locusani" meant "Lost One", it would be from the verb locusani (to lose), which means I should add a line to the verb chart:
__ one - ani - a - a - ani
EDIT: Done.
Pronouns Should there be separate pronouns for he, she, and it? What about male, female, and neutral they? Inclusive and exclusive we? Since Narani is European in style I think there should only be one we, and having he, she, and it is useful, but I don't know about they.
Here are my ideas but I can change the picture easily:
Notes:
1 Possessive means the object is owned: "my heart", "my pencil".
2 Relative means the object is merely related: "my family", "my country".
Example: Portist amani al yamani comensanin vi educanin. (I brought you to this place where your education begins.)
EDIT: I switched the lines for "you" and "thou" because I realized that in the song, the "you" was always plural.
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MystressThere should definitely be a 'they'. Narani was based on the romance languages, remember, so...
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GorobayThere should be a they, but I meant to ask whether there should be three
theys (to correspond with
he,
she, and
it).
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MystressLike in Spanish/French/etc.? I always found that slightly weird... does Narani seem to need to have the words agree gender-wise?
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GorobayIt does not seem to even have gender. I don't think it should, either, but I wanted to ask just in case.
Earlier I guessed that "nosis amani" meant literally "I-think of-you". I think that it is actually more like "I-think-of you". "Nosi" (or "nosani") could mean "to think" and "to think of".
Correlatives These are the words like "who", "what", "that", "this", "when", "someone", and "everywhere". Any ideas?
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MystieHere are a few thoughts about it all...
- I agree about the absence of subject pronouns. To me it both sounds good and makes sense, the end of the verb replaces it nicely (though I guess that this is mainly a question of personal preference).
- The fusion between imperative and future is a great idea, I think: very fitting for a people whose life is mostly shaped by necessity. "
Tend the Tree", "
You need to tend the Tree", "
You will tend the Tree" - it is but one same thing on Narayan.
- The piece of "made-up" grammar seems amazingly well-oiled - it looks like we can really use it if Jack Wall doesn't send anything contradictory.
- Here is my theory about the word "
yan":
I think it might have a meaning akin to "world", in the most concrete sense of the term - and therefore be also used for (D'ni) "Ages"...
Because then, here is what we get:
Naray: Saavedro's world, in the widest sense of the notion of "world" (a place, but also a people, traditions, beliefs, context, history...)
Narayan: (Naray + yan) The physical place, the Age.
erte yan: literally "the art of worlds", eg. "the Art" (with a capital A, whereas "erte" has no capital E)
From here, second part of that theory: the word "
yamani"...
I think it might be a
verb, and one conveying the following idea: "
to offer", "
to provide", "
to produce", "
to well", "
to breed"... well, you see the cue. To "give" in the way a tree "gives" fruits.
And then, things work quite smoothly for
"
locusani degraca soule de yamani" (
breeding ground for lost souls)
and for
"
revilani ero yamani yan" (unlock all that my Ages have to
offer)
(with once again "
yan" standing for "world(s)", eg. "Age(s)" in this case).
Makes any sense?
- Here is another theory of sorts, but I am only half-satisfied with that one-
It is about the suffix -ani. Someone (Laroon, I think?) suggested it might have something to do with possession. I wondered if it could be given a (much wider, and rather imprecise) sense of "
of" - a kind of weaker possessive form... let's give it a try:
alani -- home(of) (first person implied by context)
famani -- family(of) (idem)
locusani -- location(of)
narayani -- Narayan(of) = "of Narayan" (inversion... implied by context?)
amani -- you(of) = of you (inversion again)
(the -ani in revilani and yamani would be just verb endings)
...Not convinced? Me neither, not really. It leaves a rather big lot to context XD
Still, I couldn't help but notice.
- A question: Gorobay, in your sentence, you seemed to use "ma" as "and" - and you, Mystress, as "my". I would rather have used it in that latter sense, because of "Malisa ma Narayan", but after all nothing is for sure - what is your perspective, Gorobay?
- My little contribution to the "make your sentence" game...
"Ero alani, t'havanin famani".
Every home means shelter to the family it harbors.
(Literally, "Every home is shelter to its family".)
(and yeah, I kinda used the rickety
-ani theory here - but only because it makes the "famani" bit somehow work like in the song)
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GorobayYour theory concerning yan and yamani sounds very probable. I had thought the meanings were the other way round, but now I changed my mind.
I think that -ani is a multipurpose suffix like -s is in English. It seems to make nouns into adjectives (Narayan -> Narayani), be an infinitive marker (revilani), be related to accusative pronouns (amani), and something else (alani, famani, yamani). After Thursday I posted an idea about pronouns which said "amani" just meant "you". I see two possibilities for the something else:
1. -ani marks a noun as being owned. The "my" is implied if nothing is stated. I think this is unlikely, becomes "alani" could then be also said as "mi al", and it would be unclear when to do which.
2. -ani is just a common noun ending without any meaning (like -o and -a in Spanish). Just as "the" is implied, so is "my" implied when it makes sense. I am more convinced by this one.
Oops, I messed up. My pronouns idea posted after Thursday shows my view of things. I agree that "ya" is a good word for "and".
I would write that as "Ero alani t'havanin al famani", assuming "al" means "to". It could also be written as "ero alani t'havanin al ana famani", where "ana" means "its", but the "ana" is implied.
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MystieI like that one too...
(still need to read the "post-thursday" stuff, though)
Yup, I agree.
Yes, we can probably leave either of the two words to context (probably "ana" since it is the way it seems to be working in the song).
"Ana" sounds more Narani than "al", to me, because "al" has a more markedly Spanish feeling about it... do you think we could twist it a little? ("ala"? "an"?... any ideas?) -it might just be me, though.
In any case, I like the sentence better the way you rephrased it - it sounds clearer, we needed the extra word.
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GorobayEither "ala" or "an" works. "Al" was only meant to be an example.
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GorobayNoun-to-adjective suffixes The only one we have is "-i" in "Narayani". I think this should be a suffix for changing nouns to adjectives meaning "related to".
latisti = arboreal
Another suffix could be "-os" (or "-ex" or "-u" or "-es" or something related to "-ous" and "-eux"). It would mean "full of".
parielos = perilous
Adverbs How about something like "-me" as an adverbial suffix? ("-ma" sounds better but it is already a verb suffix and that might get confusing).
grandame = largely
Put them together and we get words like "azhwanosme" for "joyfully". Alternatively, we could, for words like this, take out the adjective suffix and leave only the adverb suffix: "azhwame".
What do you think?
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Gorobay[/b]
Maybe because so many words are left out in the song, I think that there should be some way of knowing when a word can be left to context and omitted. These are mostly made up to cover holes in the song lyrics:
1. Ownership words (my, his, etc.) can be omitted when it is obvious. In "Naray alani" it is obvious he means "my home", so he doesn't have to say the word for "my". In "ami malisa pariel", he could have meant his own peril, so he had to say "ami" to disambiguate.
2. Words like "which" and "that" and "whose" are left out, as in "Naray latiste t'dee" ("Naray, (whose) tree is life").
3. There is no "the" or "a".
4. The verb "have" is omitted in the phrase "have/has to __". So "ero yamani yan" is "all to-offer ages".
5. In phrases like "is eaten" or "is killed", use "eat" or "kill" instead. Like in English we say "the tree is broken", "the tree breaks", or "the person breaks the tree", in Narani they say "latist fractori" or "homani fractori latiste".
6. "Of" is left out in things like "comensanin expidan" (instead of "comensanin de expidan"). This rule was already meantioned earlier, but I wanted to say it again.
Is that good?
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MystieThe verbs table and pronouns table are fine with me.
About the pronouns one, though, I read that you (Gorobay) had "switched the lines for "you" and "thou" because you realized that in the song, the "you" was always plural" - but in the displayed table, the plural you is «vi - va - vosani» while it is the «thou» line that has «ami - ama - amani» like in the song... isn’t that a mistake? Or did I misunderstand?
As for «they», I do not mind whether we get masculine/feminine/neutral versions or just a generic one like in English. It is true that the first case sounds more European, but maybe we want to keep things simple - I guess this all depends on how we feel about it.
Remember, though, that having
all words agree gender-wise might mean having to choose a gender for
every single noun if we do things the French way... (like, a «table» or a «shoe» is a she, a «sandwich» or a «book» is a he, and so on... XD) ...we might prefer to make every object
neutral. In any case, I am not sure the distinction is necessary.
This makes me think of another «European» language feature: the «formal» you. Or should I say, the «formal»
thou...
In old English, if I am correct, «you» was used as a formal «thou» (when addressing a stranger or a «superior» of any kind); then «thou» disappeared and only «you» remained, making things much simpler (and yeah, as a French, there are times when I
really envy all of you English-speaking people for this little simplification... XD). So...
-Should Narani have a «formal» you? (when addressing an Elder, for instance, or a stranger...)
-And if so, should it be the Old-English/French way (plural «you»)?
Example:
«Comment allez-vous?» = formal «How art thou?» (singular) = literally «How are
you» with a plural «you»
-...Or the German way (plural «he-she-it», that is «they»)?
Example:
«Wo sind Sie?» = formal «Where art thou?» (singular) = literally «Where are they?»
-...Or yet another way?...
Once again, if we are going for simplification, that is probably out of question X)
About adverbs, you said that the suffix «-ma» sounded better than «-me» but was already taken... How about using «-na», then?
I explain: it seems that «na» means «with», if «azhwa na» = «with joy».
Maybe a «-na» suffix could be a way to «integrate» the «na» into the word, making it an adverb, working indeed like the «-ly» suffix in English... and you get «grandana» instead of «grandame» for «greatly».
This would also mean that «azhwa na» = «with joy», whereas «ashwana» = «joyfully»
Would you like it better?
I really like the other noun-to-adjective suffixes.
As for the rules for omission possibilities, they do seem to work well.
If we want more freedom and less imprecision for casual speech, though, we could also admit that artistic license justified some of the omissions in the song (poetry would allow some slightly different form of speech - I believe this exists in English too, to some extent, doesn’t it?).
This way, we could settle simple rules for everyday speech, keeping it more explicit.
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GorobayI changed the picture too. Try clearing your cache. That should work. Anyway, the updated chart does have "vi - va - vosani" for singular, and "ami - ama - amani" for plural.
In that case, let's simplify and make only one they.
I don't think so. The Narayani seemed like the kind of people that all live together and not have "you" distinctions. And it also makes it easier to learn.
That is a good one.
True, but some of them should apply in normal speech, like 3, 5, and 6.
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MystressQuick question: 'Locusani' is definitely 'location (of)'? Because that would mean that I
seriously screwed up the title of my fic...
I do agree, though: locusani= location (of) and degraca-sul (soule?) = lost soul / disgraced soul.
But because of the alternate spelling, i.e., soule vs. sul, it seems to me that the two words would be different. They sound slightly different as well: soule sounds longer and has the o sound, whereas sul is shorter and has the prominent u sound. So, it's entirely possible that they are two different but similar words - soule meaning heart and sul meaning soul.
Also, with the -me ending... that's supposed to be like -ing, right? What would be the English equivalent? And I agree with grandana as opposed to grandame - the latter sounds too Spanish.
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Gorobay[/b]
Hmm... that is problematic. I had always thought it meant "location"; infact, the first time I read your story, I wondered why you chose that title. But we can work something out.
What alternate spelling? In the official lyrics both are spelled "soule".
It was supposed to be like "-ly".
I think so too.
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Mystress[/b]
... See, the general opinion is that locusani = lost soul, but your definition works too.
... Is it really soule in the real lyrics? I was always told sul was the right form... that's what it seems to sound like.
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Gorobay[/b]
I use
Mysterium.ch for the lyrics. That version has "soule" throughout.
If "locusani" means "lost soul", what is "degrasa soule"?
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Mystress[/b]
Precisely the issue... and it's a mortifying one, as I didn't exactly intend to do that...
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Mystie[/b]
It is true that I would instinctively think of "locusani" as some sort of derivative from "locus", therefore meaning "place".
Then again, Gorobay has already proposed a possible manner to make things work your way, a few pages ago...
In any case, the first time I read the title of your fic, well believe it of not - I found it very fitting, in its "locus" meaning. Here is not the place to discuss it, but if you want I can try to explain why I felt so in the writers thread or somwhere...
Btw, jut being curious: you said that "the general opinion is that locusani = lost soul" -> could you give us the link(s), please? I haven't found this version of the translation, which means there are Narani translation pages that I haven't seen, which means "me wanna see!!"
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Gorobay[/b]
If "locusani" meant "Lost One", it would be from the verb locusani (to lose)
That is assuming that "yamani" means "breeding ground", but I think it is more likely to mean "to offer/breed/provide/etc." as Mystie said.
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Mystress[/b]
... So you're positing that "locusani degrasa soule de yamani" means, roughly translated, "Place where Lost Souls breed"?
That works, too... *is kinda trying to save face here so she doesn't look like an idiot and have to retitle her fanfic*
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Gorobay[/b]
Yes, that's what I think.
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Mystress[/b]
Then I'm a total idiot and I'm going to have to retitle my fanfic 'Degrasa' or something... Which means that everyone who helped me make banners and stuff for my site is going to need to remake them with the new title... *slinks off in shame*
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Gorobay[/b]
No, don't do that! "Locusani" sounds nicer than "degrasa" even if it's not what you meant. Anyway, it could just be understood that "locusani" is short for "locusani degrasa soule", so instead of the title referring to the character, it refers to the setting.
EDIT: So, how about correlatives? I think, just like English has a pattern but exception, so should Narani. Just like some "somewhere", "anywhere", "everywhere", and "nowhere" all end in "-where", I think the Narani correspondents should end in "-yan".
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Mystress[/b]
That's why I didn't want to change it - 'Locusani' just sounds better than 'Degrasa'. And that way, I only have to do a little editing of the information on my website for it to make sense. Hooray for alternatives!
About the -yan ending - I agree. Will we have non-specific subject words as well, like 'something' and 'nothing' and stuff like that? And how will we tackle question words, you know, 'who-what-when-where-why-how'?
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Gorobay[/b]
Since Narani is a European-like language, I think the question words should be their own words but have something in common with each other, like
what and
why or
quand and
qui. "Each-", "some-", and "no-" should have corresponding prefixes. And of course, there can be exceptions, because all real languages have them.
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Mystress[/b]
I like the idea of having some sort of common word root. It's the way that most romance languages work - and Narani's based on romance languages.
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Gorobay[/b]
Correlatives I went ahead and made a chart for these. Tell me what you think:
Notes:
1: "Some-" might also work without any prefix at all.
2: From "ni yan", "our land".
3: From "di yan", "their land.
4: "-" represents any word. E.g. "what tree?" is "ka latist".
5: From "yan sal", "place of the sun" ("time").
This is merely preliminary and I welcome suggestions.
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MystieWhen you say "from" (eg. "
from "
yan sal", "
place of the sun"
("
time"
)"), are you referring to any particular source or do you invent it as you go? If so, I think it is a good job (I particularly love the "yan sal" one, actually).
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Gorobay[/b]
I make it up as I go along. I think I should explain how I invented these words:
"K(a)-" is from "qu-" in French, Latin, and Spanish.
"Si" and "la" are from French "-ci" and "-là ".
"Kel-" is from French "quel-".
"Ero-" is from Narani "ero" ("all"), which we already knew.
"-na" in the manner words is from the adverbial suffix.
"Nar" is my guess at person, as if "Naray" comes from that. This can be changed easily.
"Kapor" is literally "what for". If "for" is decided to be something else this can also be changed easily.
It is "yosal" instead of "yansal" because "place" is really "yån" which becomes "yo" internally.
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MystressDo we have verbal wording/sound changes in certain words, like Spanish does, seeing as we're keeping the traditional infinitive form for the verbs?
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Gorobay[/b]
I'm not sure what this means; are you talking about
ablaut and mutation?
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Mystress[/u]
No, I was referring to how Spanish verbs (and French and Italian?) are always in the infinitive when not conjugated. That is, tener = to have, while tengo = I have (conjugated into the 'yo' or 'I' form) and tenemos = we have (conjugated into the 'nosotros' or 'we' form). Seeing as we have some sort of conjugating verb chart going on here, plus forms for I, You, He/She/It, We, and They...
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Gorobay[/u]
I still don't get it. Either a verb is in the infinitive or it is conjugated. What is the other option?
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Mystress[/u]
Some verbs in Spanish change pronunciation slightly, and therefore their spelling slightly, when they're conjugated into certain tenses. For instance, poner (to put) changes to pudo when conjugated in the Yo/I form in the past tense. Other verbs change similarly.
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GorobayOh, I get it now!
As of right now, my verb chart does not include such changes, but I think there should be some. These charts were all meant to be works in progress anyway.
Do you have any specific suggestions?
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GorobayI have made a second edition of the verb chart.
I changed a few things from the first version so I thought I would explain my reasoning.
1. The fourth verb family I changed to "-en". I did this because the word for "is", "t'", is probably a shortened version of something. I thought it would more likely be "te" and it too confusing to have two "-ani" families.
2. I changed the first person singular ending from "-is" to "-as" and "-is" (depending on the family). It just makes it more consistent.
3. "-ån" became "-yån", "-aon", and "-un" for the second, third, and fourth families. I just included the last sound of the family ending (i, a, or e). i + à = yà -> yån. a + à = aà -> aon. e + à = eà -> un.
All the other changes follow those. This does not cover anything about internal changing yet.
Any suggestions? I'm sure this is neither perfect nor clear.
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MystressUm... random thing, here... do we have demonstratives for here, there, and over there yet? As in, "this tree"/"these spores", "that tree"/"those spores", and "that tree over there"/"those spores over there"?
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GorobaySee my preliminary idea concerning correlatives. "This tree" would be "latist si". "That tree" would be "latist la".
