Narayan Language Discussion

[laroon]

I've taken the liberty to provide a place to discuss the language in a proper thread. This is being extended from narayani.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=business&action=display&thread=20

Basing a new language off another language can be dangerous. It's pretty obvious he's done just that though, with plenty of the roots (ha. pun) of words looking to be Latin in origin. However, doing this can get tacky really fast. So we do need a unique way to come up with words. After all, technically a new language could be just giving an appendage of 'x' to English words, and thus creating a sentence of

"Ix wantx tox speakx withx youx inx myx newx languagex."

But it's not exactly unique, now is it?

So we do need to create our own root words and general ideas. As for what I thought so far, Naray Alani is just translated as "narayan my home" but really is transliterated into "naray the-thing-i-adore-and-cherrish" since my "alani" is that awesome connection to things. In context, it's just "narayan my home" to a degree. I hope that makes sense.

As for the pronouns, I haven't gotten a list yet, but they'll come. So far we have the accusative case of 'I' and 'You' (me and you, respectively).
That's the ma / ta thing. And when put with a verb, it applies the verb TO the appended pronoun. Therefor, I'm thinking Subject Object Verb word order.

Again, remember that the song is based on poetry, so its translation could be very loose and generic in form and completion of full sentences.

[dlordoftime]

I once did a language based off Latin, but to make it unique, I applied the grammar system I'd created earlier to it. To create the words, I took their sound, altered it slightly to fit the phonemic alphabet I'd creadted, and then I had it. Not hard. The rule was 'If it sounds right, it is right'. So we can create a similar rule for English -> Narayani. That way, we can construct the language from scratch.

Back to grammar.

With the pronouns, what we have is the accusative (or it may be dative) and genitive forms of you, amani and ami, and the genitive form of I, ma/mi. This leads me to conclude that the root of you is am, and the root of I, m. This of course means that the accusative (or dative) ending is ani, and the genitive ending, i. In fact, there is a chance that this may also apply to nouns. Maybe. Ok, long talk over. Your turn.

[laroon]

As far as roots for "you", I'm leaning towards a way where "amani" and "ami" have nothing to do with "You".

Three cases:

1.
Ami malisa pariel;
Memondama ami soule!
I will avenge your peril;
Remember my heart!

Ami can definitely be "I" and is here for emphasis. But I think it's merely "I will-avenge peril." The 'your' is just in there for emphasis in the translation. It's simply implied.

2. This one seems a bit farfetched to be equivalent at all -
J'Nanin, apic'Nanin, revilani ero yamani yan
J'Nanin, use what you have seen to unlock all that my Ages have to offer.
That's just too busy with English to be exact. Revilani is surely "unlock" or "reveal" or "make clear" or something along those lines. If anything it could be that the apic'Nanin is just a way to express "using sight" or something. But the rest is just translated in a general sense rather than word for word.

3. Nosis amani azhwa na.
I think of you with joy.

If we do indeed stick with Subject Object Verb, this could be Nosis for a royal 'we', amani (sounding like alani) could be the 'joy', azhwa na could be "think of". It's implied that he's thinking of narayan in general because of the two lines preceding that both start "Naray".

This opens up 'you' to be anything.

Going along with the -t'verb- construction, there is the one in the first part.

Naray latiste t'dee;
Narayan, whose lattice tree is life;

If two nouns follow one another, we could just make it mean possessive. So Naray latiste = narayan's lattice. Also, latiste could just be 'latis + te' and that 'te' could be "of yours" or "of the thing preceding this noun" etc. And could then be used to modify any noun.

The "dee" could be the verb "to live" or "to provide life". So "we live in you" isn't too far from that. Or "We keep you alive" to bring forth that symbiotic relationship. Or simply could be "we live for you".

Does this all make sense? I'm working on level 2 anyhow.

[dlordoftime]

After listening to the song several times, I am of the opinion that the latiste t'dee is actually either latis t'dee or latiste dee, since I cannot hear two 't' sounds.

However, I am busy trying to work out a theory of verbs, which I am almost done with, so I'll finish that, then turn my attention to the pronouns. But I am still very much of the opinion that am is the root for you.

EDIT: Changed my mind. Latiste t'dee works.

[dlordoftime]

Ok. I have a proposition that I feel works to the shape of the language, and on the whole, sounds Narayani. So, here it is.

~~~

comensani - to start, begin
expidani - to journey
revilani - to reveal
havani - to shelter
yamani - to offer
nilašani - to destroy, annihilate
nani - to see
memondami - to remember
degrasi - to disgrace
mali - to avenge
apici - to use, apply
devóti - to love
si - to protect, keep safe
ti - to be

yan - the world, Age
alan - the home
lócusan - the place, location
faman - the family
paril - the peril
súl - the heart, soul
latist - the lattice tree
ajwa - the joy
di - the life
ert - the art

eró - all
na - with
de - for

~~~

I have used various symbols to represent the sounds of the words to accurately represent how they are said, since this is how I feel the Narayani would have written these words. Therefore, we have a as in sa, á as in Naray, e as in de, i as in apici when followed by a consonant other than r or l, and as in ami when at the end of a word or followed by r or l, o as in Voltaic, ó as in ero, u as in locusani, ú as in soule, j as in azhwa, and š as in nilashan.

[dlordoftime]

To continue, I shall provide inflections for both verb families in the 6 persons, using verbs from each family. With the -i family, I will use vócani, to speak, and with the xi family, I will use si, to protect. I will give the present, future, perfect and imperfect tenses (as it is based off the European languages, which have those tenses).

Infinitive	vócani	si
Present
1st Singular	vócanis	sas
2nd Singular	vócanin	san
3rd Singular	vócani	sa
1st Plural	vócanise	sase
2nd Plural	vócanine	sane
3rd Plural	vócane	se/s'
Future & Imperative
1st Singular	vócanisa	sasa
2nd Singular	vócanina	sana
3rd Singular	vócania	sá
1st Plural	vócaniséa	saséa
2nd Plural	vócaninéa	sanéa
3rd Plural	vócanéa	séa
Perfect
1st Singular	avis vócana	avis sa
2nd Singular	avin vócana	avin sa
3rd Singular	avi vócana	avi sa
1st Plural	avise vócana	avise sa
2nd Plural	avine vócana	avine sa
3rd Plural	ave vócana	ave sa
Imperfect
1st Singular	vócanisó	sasó
2nd Singular	vócaninó	sanó
3rd Singular	vócanió	sáó
1st Plural	vócaniséó	saséó
2nd Plural	vócaninéó	sanéó
3rd Plural	vócanéó	séó

[dlordoftime]

Next, the nouns. There are relatively few rules for nouns compared to verbs, but here is what I have so far. There are two types of noun, those which end in a consonant, and those which end in a vowel. For the first type, I will use ert, the art, and for the second, I will use ajwa, the joy.

Noun	ert	ajwa
Plural	erte	ajwane
Genitive	erti	ajwani
Plural Genitive	erté	ajwané

Finally, word order. In a standard Narayani sentence, the subject comes first, then the verb, then the object. This may change in poetry, in order to keep to the rhyme, much as English word order can change in poetic texts, purely for the sake of the rhyme. Also, a noun will be preceeded by an adjective, and the articles, the and a are always ommited, left down to context to be filled in.

Using what I have proposed, the translation of the song would therefore be:

Tomahna, Edanna, Amateria, Voltaic, Narayan,
J'nanin, you begin the journey to reveal the arts of world {the Art - minor flaw}.

Narayan, home,
Narayan's lattice trees are life,
I think of you with joy.
Protect (my) family,
Shleter loved ones.

Tomahna, Edanna, Amateria, Voltaic, Narayan,
J'nanin, use (what) you see to reveal all (that) my Age {lit. world - minor flaw} offers.

I will avenge your peril;
Remember my heart!

Tomahna! Edanna!
Amateria! Narayan!

Releeshahn! Annihilation!
I will avenge my Narayan!

Tomahna, Edanna, Amateria, Voltaic, Narayan,
J'nanin, the place for lost/disgraced souls to offer...

Note how this is still very close to the published translation.

Also, to demonstrate my proposition, I will construct basic sentences for you.

Eró expidane comensane a di. ~ All journeys begin at life
Vócana, atianisa ~ Speak, and I will listen
Oliviséa ce avise vena ~ We must not forget from whence we came

[laroon]

Why bother with conjugations? I don't think the language really needs it.

Further, I was toying with the idea of Naray Alani. Suppose that Naray means 'home'. Naray alani, then, would be 'beloved home'. And Yan can mean 'world' (yam meaning 'age', slight difference). So Narayan just means "home world".

Further, I think it's dangerous to take the translation as pure word-for-word. There's just no way to do that safely. A lot of poetic license should be taken here, since we have a small example from years ago upon which hasn't been expanded.

Or do you not care for the direction I took it?

[dlordoftime]

Why on eart would naray mean home? It is clearly the root of Narayan. But I am merely expanding upon a small collection of rules. What I began with would barely fill two lines on an A4 sheet of paper. What I have now would fill the same sheet. Besides, conjugations is what makes a language. You cannot simple go round with unconjugated verbs. Even giving them personal pronouns, as we do in English is cojugating them. Man, even the Ancient Egyptians cojugated verbs! There is no getting away from it!

On the meaning of Naray, I am of the opinion that Naray is Saavedro's home, that tree in the vast expanse of ocean. All he knows and can see. That is Naray. Along comes Atrus, and tells Saaveedro that there is an entire planet, an Age beyond Naray. To understand this, Saavedro takes Naray, and the Narayani word for world, yan, joins them, and discovers Narayan, which is the word Atrus used to name the Age, as Narayan is the term for the whole Age, whereas Naray is just the small area that you link to.

And as for a word for word translation? Is that not how we relate our own language to other languages from overseas? Is that not how bi-lingual dictionaries are written? Dear friend, that is how languages are.

[laroon]

Have you seen swedish, chinese, korean, vietnamese, hawaiian, or japanese? They are a few MAJOR languages that don't have conjugation. Just because you're stuck in a mode of romantic languages, doesn't mean that Narayan can only exist in such a manner.

Getting away without conjugation will do two things -

1. make context insanely useful.
2. make it easier for this language to survive in a pop culture with a member list of 23.

If you say he lives in Naray and that's all he knows, then why wouldn't it be synonymous with 'home' is my question. I mean we call our planet "earth" which means dirt. We live on dirt, he lives at home.

[dlordoftime]

Then why is Naray translated as Narayan? Besides, he almost certainly has a house, in the same way as we do. And just as we have seperate words for house and Earth, so to would the Narayani have seperate words for their Narayan and their dwellings.

Oh, and did I forget to mention that Narayani is based off the romance languages? And didn't Jack Wall, who created the language say that? So therefore, would it not follow that Narayani also conjugates?

[laroon]

It's translated like that because we are familiar with the word. Your home can be two different things. Home in general is the thing that you live in, but can be a larger scope of a place too. Earth (I think) is your home, but you don't exactly put that for your return address on a letter. But if you were in another world or lightyears/dimensions away, and someone said "where is your home?" you'd probably say "Earth" rather than 1234 Main Street, Awesometown, Wyoming".

And that's fine that it's based off of the romance languages. But so is Eperanto. I'm not trying to make a universal language that sounds like the others. We have 4 and a half main romantic languages (spanish, french, portuguese, italian and then maybe romanian ftw). Esperanto, if you've looked at it, is a very simplistic version of the romance languages.

I'm glad you know your romance languages. They're useful. I just think that Jack Wall was limited to his language creation because he was highly delved into the romance languages himself and wasn't, well, conscious of the other language types to a degree that proved useful.

I think it's in our best interest to make something relatively simplistic (I mean, the Narayani people were/are a gardening people) language that is easy to pick up. If we make it crazy with 10 different kinds of conjugation and tenses and other things that only complicate, then we're doing a disservice to the language.

I know what I'm doing with the language lessons is kind of going off in a crazy direction, but trust me, it'll work.

[dlordoftime]

It doesn't matter that he only knew of the Romance languages. If he based it on them, that;s what he did, so a reconstruction would therefore also follow the same rules. But then, the three other language families in Europe also have the same conjugations. Germanic, best known in German, Slavic, best known is Russian, and Greek. Romance is characterised by Latin, from which the languages are descended.

And forgive me for placing my trust in my idea, but I have already created the most complete proposition the forum has, whereas you have very little to support your idea. Write up a proposition which can translate the song, and point out poetic licensing, fill the gaps, and then I might be interested.

[laroon]

I'm glad you brought it up. I had this written up a bit ago, which is where I was getting my ideas. I hope this clears the air a bit.

J'Nanin, comensanin, expidan revilani erte yan.
J'Nanin, where the journey to learn the Art begins.
This sight, beginning, journey reveals art world.

Naray alani;
Narayan my home.
Home beloved.

Naray latiste t'dee;
Narayan who's lattice tree is life.
Home lattice to you gives life.

Nosis amani azhwa na.
I think of you with joy.
Everyone joy thinks of.

Famani Sa;
Keep my family safe;
Family secure.

Havana devota.
Shelter the ones I love.
Loved ones shelter.

J'Nanin, apic'Nanin, revilani ero yamani yan
J'Nanin, use what you have seen to unlock all that my Ages have to offer.
This sight, use of sight, reveal clearly age-people's worlds.

Ami malisa pariel;
I will avenge your peril;
I avenge peril.

Memondama ami soule!
Remember my heart!
Remember my heart/soul.

Nilashahn! Malisa ma Narayan!
Annihilation! I will avenge my Narayan!
Annihilation. I avenge to house myself.

J'Nanin, locusani, degraca soule de yamani...
J'Nanin, breeding ground for lost souls...
This sight, new place in which one is moved temporarily, disgraced souls of age-people.

[dlordoftime]

Interesting, but even after rewording each line to put it in proper English, it doesn't really fit with what Jack says is the translation, and if he says it's the translation, you can't go against that. It'd be like saying that D'ni actually a load of ideas without a translation. And another thing, Jack said that the language was originally intended as a D'ni dialect, but then it was decided that it shouldn't be D'ni. And D'ni, as we know, has conjugation.